I feel that we are so close that I have little time left to bring myself to Him.

YBIC,

DRandall

Thank you for your patient follow-up to the previous comments. I am blessed to observe you, or any saint, thinking deeply about these topics. They are very important.

I would share something that I wrote to another brother recently. I think it is important to really understand terms. You mentioned the doctrine of "once saved always saved." What does salvation truly refer unto?

I believe the most common conception in the minds of Christians today is that salvation implies that they have been saved from hell. In other words, they have received a get out of hell free card by professing faith in Christ now and getting baptized. Of course, there is much more to salvation, otherwise Paul would not have urged the saints to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." What this salvation is, is discussed in a recent blog.

http://parablesblog.blogspot.com/2011/11/gods-plan-of-ages-soul-that-sins-must.html

I think one appropriate answer to the question "What are they saved from" is "they are saved from the wrath of God."

Romans 5:8-10
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD THROUGH HIM. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

As long as men continue in sin, they are subject to wrath.

Ephesians 2:1-7
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, AND WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

There are multitudes of Christians who will experience the wrath of God, being cast into the lake of fire, because they did not depart from sin and yield their bodies as a living sacrifice to God when they had the opportunity. I do not believe it can truly be said that such ones are "saved." They surely are not saved from the wrath of God, for God will not be mocked. All men will reap according to what they have sown. Those who sow to the flesh will reap in wrath.

If we understand this, then we will have no difficulty understanding the apostle's exhortation to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Paul said that Christians are "being saved." Salvation is not a one time event such as walking through a door. There is also a path to be walked out if one would attain to life.

May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.

First, thank you for taking the time to set the record straight and to rightly discern where the lines are when it comes to TROAT.

You are probably right that my questions were born of confusion, but not mine, but of the teachings of others because it is very common to preach the salvation of all believers using Once Saved Always Saved "OSAS" which does exactly what I set forth in my question. The do not teach TROAT but they, on the one hand, teach the Lake of Fire in the context of eternal torment or outright destruction for those who deny or do not accept Christ; but, on the other hand, teach that once a persona accepts Christ they are saved from punishment and enter Grace and Salvation and Redemption from the Tribulation via the Rapture.

To me, this doctrine represents one of the great schisms in Christianity today. Those who argue for the loss of salvation through sin and those who proclaim OSAS. Both have it wrong. TROAT resolves these errors and the schism created between them while proclaiming an even greater love and logic as you have so eloquently set forth in your current series.

I read a tremendous amount of the teachings of others, and I read so many messages that gloss over the real message of Christ and preach OSAS "Once Saved Always Saved." This cannot be the case because we all can think of scenarios that God would hate and would indeed punish. While this would contradict OSAS it does not contradict TROAT. Because the sinner, while professing Christ, would still be punished and still yet saved through TROAT, in the final analysis.

The fact that ALL are saved and will come to Christ in the final analysis can lead many to believe that there is no consequence for their choices here in time and space. The fact remains that the Lake of Fire is the final place of real tribulation (almost a euphemism) if not outright torment that will yield even the greatest of sinners to confess and proclaim their error and accept Christ as Savior.

And so it is this that we all must try to convey to our family and friends and all who have an ear to hear: That while they will be saved by Christ they will also see trouble and pain before being saved and reconciled to Him. Their only choice in the matter is whether to voluntarily take up The Cross and suffer their affliction in time and space now or to wait and have the tribulation come to them in a manner that none of us can really appreciate.

This is the real value of TROAT. It resolves so many contradictions in faith and so greatly strengthens the love the Christ has for each and every one of us.

Again, thank you for taking these questions.

YBIC,

DRandall

Your premise here seems to be one of confusion. You suggest that those preaching eternal damnation are somehow actually preaching the reconciliation of all things to God. I am unable to follow your logic, or agree with your conclusions.

For example, you say that the prosperity crowd preaches the salvation of even the most sinful of believers, which basically makes them proponents of TROAT. A correct understanding of the God's plan of the ages must include the truth that carnal Christians will not be saved from the lake of fire. God will not be mocked. These ones will suffer great loss as they share a place with the unbelievers.

Whereas it is true that no man will remain in the lake of fire forever, I believe it is wrong minded to conclude that there is any harmony between the teachings of apostate Christianity and the doctrine of Christ and His apostles.

In your question section, you asked a few questions, and from your conclusion at the end it seems you would infer a positive response to them. I would most definitely answer the first two questions with a resounding "NO!"

Question 1: No! All who profess faith in Christ are not reconciled. Christ said that many will stand before Him in judgment and expect entrance into His Father's kingdom. He will reply, "Depart from Me. I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness."

There is a vast number of people today who honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. These one cannot be judged to be reconciled to God. Christ is certainly not "all" in these saints lives. He does not fill all things. They have not come near to a mature man, to the fulness of the stature that belongs to Christ." God will not be mocked. These are not reconciled, for their actions speak otherwise.

Question 2 is also a resounding "NO!" Doctrine becomes more important than ever. To be fully reconciled to God one must walk in truth. We are to increase in the true knowledge of God, and depart from error. As we come to know God better we will lay aside the error we once walked in. There are so many Scriptures proclaiming the importance of right doctrine that it is quite impossible to answer your second question affirmatively.

Paul states that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine. Many have concluded exactly what you have suggested; they declare that doctrine is not important. Even the uniqueness of Christ is deemed irrelevant by some. We must teach sound doctrine.

Regarding question three, I cannot agree that all other doctrine has become irrelevant to mankind. I believe you are on the wrong track with this line of reasoning. The goal of Christianity is conformity to Christ, not escape from hell. This conformity will only come with sound doctrine, teaching the message of the disciple's cross and the foundations of the faith. There must be growth in obedience to Christ and in the knowledge of the truth.

In light of the doctrine of the restitution of all things (TROAT), does this not require a reassessment of how we view the teachings by so many preachers of the "Prosperity Doctrine," Catholicism and, for that matter, almost every organized Christian faith tradition?

Are they not also preaching a type of universality in that they recognize, perhaps for the wrong reasons, that God is in fact an unlimited and boundless God and that He wills that ALL be saved? For example: While they may preach eternal damnation for those who deny Christ they also preach the salvation of even the most sinful of believers using the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved.” And so, those they “lose” in the first case are yet still saved by the second— if only they believe.

Even though I would think that we both would find these teachings in gross error on their face knowing what we believe about how God wants us to push and strive for Him, but given TROAT, are they not correct in the final analysis? Doesn’t it become a case of “Ye’ll take the high road and I’ll take the low road and I’ll be Scotland (Heaven) afore ye?”

A few questions:

1) Given TROAT, aren’t all who profess faith in Christ now reconciled?

2) Given TROAT, aren’t arguments over doctrines now vain after one comes to believe that Christ did come to save all through His sacrifice on the cross?

3) Given TROAT, isn’t the rest of doctrine, albeit significant to you and me, become mere detail when compared to the fact that He does not relegate unbelievers to eternal damnation and that all will be saved in their season?

If the answers to these are “yes”, are we not to show others that the pain and suffering that their ego will bring them can be removed through their faith and that future pain and suffering can be eliminated—yet they will be saved no matter what? Wouldn’t this bring so many more to salvation if it were communicated that they are destined to become “begotten children” because before Him “every knee shall bend.”

What now, are we fighting fore if all will be saved? Are we not now simply praying for our brothers and sisters to stop their hardheadedness and self punishment in their denial of their true identity as God’s children?

YBIC,

D Randall