I believe you would agree that not all Yahweh's sons and daughters will judge themselves, therefore they will fall under the judgment of God.

1 Corinthians 11:31-33
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.

This passage and many others reveal that the judgment of Yahweh does fall upon His children, not just the lost. Peter writes similarly:

1 Peter 4:17-18
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?

The false doctrines of present Christianity would permit the church to follow after carnality without fear of judgment. They have embraced many false doctrines that lead them to walk very carelessly. They are not walking in the fear of God, as they ought to, having had the fear of judgment removed from their eyes.

Even those sons whose hearts are turned toward obeying the Father must experience His scourging. In the book of Hebrews Paul tells us that God "scourges EVERY son whom He receives." If we are without this discipline, then we are illegitimate sons.

This present time is appointed for the perfecting of sons, and if Christ was perfected through suffering, then so must be all who would be sons. There is no other method to conform a carnal, Adamic man into a spiritual creation in the likeness of Christ.

Brother, due to time, I am not able to continue this thread further. I have meetings beginning tomorrow. If you would like to correspond further, please contact me at my e-mail address which can be found on the top left side of the Parables Blog.

May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.

I don't doubt your love for the Lord…but no one is perfect, not even you…so like others have confronted you…your word is not the final say…your opinion can hurt and i don't mean in a growing mature way…be careful of a righteous attitude…you are being called on it.

…you did not reply to the 1 Thess.1:10 and Rev. 6 and Rev.15, start and end of God's wrath.

Wrath: 1. intense anger; rage; fury. 2. any action carried out in great anger, esp. for punishment or vengeance.

…why would God punish His children sealed with the Holy Spirit?

…no hard feelings…just could not take everything you have written has fact.

You cite the Scripture that declares that God did not appoints us to suffer wrath. What is that wrath He is speaking of? It can be understood by the context of the passage.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us(me) to suffer WRATH, but to receive SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ.

In this passage these two things are contrasted: WRATH and SALVATION. The Scriptures declare that Yahweh will tread His enemies under His feet in the winepress of His wrath at the third and final resurrection.

This passage is not intended to be understood as some do, that Christians will not have to experience suffering, persecution, and even death as martyrs here in this life. If this were so, then why did so many apostles and disciples of Christ die as martyrs?

Consider the words of the apostle Paul:

Colossians 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church…

You mentioned that only Christ had a cup of suffering to drink, and we do not. Paul clearly testifies that this cup of suffering yet remains. He is committed to "fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ."

We know those things Paul experienced, beatings, stoning, imprisonment, and eventual death. These are part of the afflictions that yet remain for the people of God which are the Body of Christ.

The apostles everywhere agree that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 14:21-22
And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…

It is also a tragic deception to believe that when God looks at you He sees only His Son who is the Christ. If this were true, then why do we read everywhere throughout the New Testament of God judging His people who are in Christ?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians and told them that some were sick, and others had died, for partaking of the Lord's supper in an improper way. Was the Father seeing only His Son when these believers were acting carnally?

Then there is the instance of Ananias and Sapphira who were both struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit. We read Christ's words to the seven churches where He begins repeatedly by declaring "I know YOUR DEEDS."

Yahshua did not say, "My Father sees only Me when HE looks at you." The declaration of truth must proclaim to the people of God, "Be not decieved. God will not be mocked, for YOU will reap what YOU sow. He who sows to the flesh will reap destruction, but He who sows to the Spirit will reap life to the ages."

May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.

1 Peter 1:7 (King James Version)

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

That being said, I am not interested in any words written by Tim LaHaye or any other men, but rather holy men moved by the Holy Spirit. I will focus my response to the verses in question and reference only those verses that can be considered relevant on an exegetical level.

Regarding Luke 21:36, Joseph said: "Notice that Christ does not say that Christians should pray that they might AVOID those things to take place. They are instead urged to pray for STRENGTH. This gives us a clue to understanding what is meant by the word escape."

1. Your assertion that Jesus does not urge us to pray to "avoid" is incorrect – the Greek word used for "escape" is ekfeugo, or "to flee from". If there's any distinction between avoiding something and fleeing from something it is merely semantic in nature. Though you choose to reference the NAS version of the verse, the Greek verb "katischuo" means "to have the strength or capability to obtain an advantage, be dominant, prevail".

The verse, then, literally says we are to pray that we are given the capability to obtain an advantage/superior position/dominance to flee from or to prevail in fleeing from all these things that will come to pass. This is in direct contradiction to your assertion that saints "will need strength to PASS THROUGH those days successfully without suffering loss. This is what it means to escape."

No, it's not – at least not according to this text. There is no confusion between "pass through" and "flee from".

2. "..and stand before the Son of man" – exactly what does Christ want to convey in this statement immediately following his reference to succeed in fleeing from what's coming? The only time the Church will stand before Christ is at the bema seat (Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9). When the Lord returns with His bride at the end of the tribulation in Revelation 19:8, she is seen already rewarded in fine linen, the righteous acts of the saints. Thus the bema judgment must come prior to this.

In your exegesis you conveniently do not address what it means to stand before the Son in the midst of "great tribulation". We know there will be many whose robes are washed in blood from that snare that will come upon the earth, but that is NOT what Luke 21:36 is referring to, for that would mean you are suggesting our Lord is telling us to watch and pray so we can die. This is completely unacceptable contextually speaking and does in fact suggest a not-insignificant error in doctrine.

You wrote:

"The oldest lie in the book is the one used to tempt Eve; 'Ye shall be as gods.'"

To be correct, the quotation spoken to Eve was not "Ye shall be as gods (plural, lower case)," rather it is "You shall be as God (singular, upper case) knowing good and evil." It was this particular aspect of God, the ability to determine good and evil within her own being that was held before the first woman as a temptation. I have written much on this topic in the book "Sabbath."

The quotation you cited is taken from the Psalms, recorded originally by Asaph and later quoted as truth by Christ. It is hard to imagine that a Christian could seriously contend that Christ spoke the oldest lie in the book.

You also wrote:

"We want to believe we play a role in our salvation, which would give us God-like power."

Brother, we all do play a role in our salvation. Consider the apostle Paul's words in Philippians 2:12 – "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling."

And again in Hebrews 4:11 he writes:

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.

That which Paul describes as the Sabbath rest of the people of God is that conformity to Christ we are all called to obtain. Apart from having done so, there can be no fulness of salvation.

Regarding Luke 21:36, the quotation is as follows:

Luke 21:36
"But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
NAS

Notice that Christ does not say that Christians should pray that they might AVOID those things to take place. They are instead urged to pray for STRENGTH. This gives us a clue to understanding what is meant by the word escape.

The saints will need strength to pass through those days successfully without suffering loss. This is what it means to escape.

Christ presaged these words with the following:

Luke 21:34
"Be on guard, that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap…"
NAS

Though both sinner and saint must pass through days of great tribulation, those who are found leading dissipated, sensual, self-focused lives, will find that the day entraps them. They will be snared by their sins. Christ is saying that the disciple should pray that he would have strength to be sober and vigilant, walking in righteousness in that day so that it will not be a snare unto him.

Ian, if you have your mind made up that you will not be here for days of great tribulation, then I do not believe I can persuade you. I do not believe either you or I will have long to await the fulfillment of these matters and to see whether you and a vast body of Christians are raptured out of the world, or whether you are still here.

I have no doubt that the fables of such men as Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in the "Left Behind" fiction series will truly prove to be fiction based upon false doctrine. I am at peace brother. I pray you might be also.

The oldest lie in the book is the one used to tempt Eve; “Ye shall be as gods.” We want to believe we play a role in our salvation, which would give us God-like power. But Jehovah-Jireh will provide whatever He will for His glory, and the martyrdom of His church in the last century has been greater than the sum total of all the prior centuries. Nor do I doubt there is anyone who is born again and reading this who wouldn't lay down their life for the brethren and for the name of our Lord. And we know that Revelation tells us the elect that are saved during the Tribulation will be beheaded for their witness. So for anyone who knows Jesus Christ as Lord & Saviour, attributing the "catching/snatching away/out from" event as an escapist argument simply doesn't hold water.

But let's set aside our own private interpretation and take His revelation to us in context: what do you do with Luke 21:36, for starters? Why would Jesus command – "Watch, therefore, and pray" – that we pay attention and petition for such an escape? There is no real dispute over the time period our Lord is describing in this passage, so are you suggesting his words are extraneous or empty? Of course, this is merely one passage among many that the Lord used to convey an escape for those whose lamps are full with oil (the Holy Spirit), though none of us are deserving of the salvation that He has promised to all those who believe in His name.

This refutation is very serious and demands a defense, for if you're teaching is in error, then the Word command us to confront one another in love, and I do so with the witness of two or three readers here on your blog.

I'm sure you won't hesitate to post this message along with your reply. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for sharing your sincere objections to the assertion that the elect of God will have to pass through days of great tribulation. I am sure you know that the idea of getting raptured out of this world prior to tribulation is an idea that appeals greatly to the soul of man. The Adamic nature does not desire suffering. Even Yahshua, wrestled with the cup of suffering presented to Him, but His Spirit man ruled and He was able to say, "Nevertheless, not My will, but Thy will be done."

I have recently shared more than once the following Scripture.

Mark 13:19-20
For those days will be a time of TRIBULATION such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, and never shall. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of THE ELECT whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Yahshua is declaring that the elect of God will be present during this time of tribulation. Although you may point to a limited number of examples of men who did not die, but ascended alive, such as Elijah and Enoch, there are far greater numbers of examples of men and women "who loved not their lives unto the death." Chapter 11 of Hebrews lists many who were not raptured out of this world, but were conquerors THROUGH affliction.

Hebrews 11:35-38
Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

Yahshua declared that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer THEN to enter into His glory (Luke 24:26). We are as He is in this world. We too must suffer before we enter into glory.

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…

Ian, I cannot teach the saints of God to expect to be raptured out of this world before tribulation. There are far too many already preaching this message, and the majority of them also preach the prosperity gospel, for both message appeal to the flesh of man.

We are called to live daily as martyrs. Whether we are chosen to lay down our lives as physical martyrs is up to the Father. He has chosen that end for each of His sons that will most glorify Himself.

We must pass through the "first things" before we enter into glory.

Revelation 21:4
"and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the FIRST THINGS have passed away."

May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.

This is not special revelation, but rather one He has given and promised to all those long for his appearing (2 Tim. 4:8) and look eagerly to the day when will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is (1 John 3:2). While we must always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in us even in times of trial and persecution, there is no need to charge the brethren with a work that has already been accomplished. TETELESTAI!

Love not the world and get ready to go home. God bless you, brothers & sisters…