Joseph Herrin (07-06-2010)
Solar Eclipse
Some of the greatest signs of the age are being observed in the heavens at this hour. We live in truly momentous times when many Scriptures are being fulfilled. I had thought to be spending these days in catching up on editing audio files from recent messages that I might post them to the Internet, but my mind has been so arrested by signs occurring in the heavens at this hour that I felt it necessary to first relate these things to the people of God.
Thousands of years ago Yahweh prophesied of the hour in which you and I are now walking. In the Old Testament the prophet Joel spoke in the following way:
Joel 2:30-32
And I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and awesome day of Yahweh comes. And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of Yahweh will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, even among the survivors whom Yahweh calls.
It is evident that the signs are signaling that most prophesied hour that is to fall upon the earth and all its inhabitants. This hour is “the great and awesome day of Yahweh.” It will be a time of such great tribulation that, unless the Father had shortened those days, no flesh would survive. But for the sake of the elect He has shortened those days.
I have shared this truth recorded in Mark 13:20. It is plainly revealed in these words of Christ that the elect will be present during this time of great tribulation. Joel echoes the same sentiment as he declares that “on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape.” These expressions are symbolic. They refer to two groups of Yahweh’s people. The overcomers, the firstborn, and anointed firstfruits are those who are pictured as being on Mount Zion. The latter born sons of God are those pictured as being in Jerusalem. There will be those from both groups who will escape and survive those days.
Would you not think it to be a critically important matter to know whether the days spoken of are upon you, even at the door? Our Father thinks it to be a very important matter, and for this reason He has appointed signs, major signs, to declare to His watchful sons that hour they are entering. That there would be such signs was also declared by Yahshua to His disciples.
Luke 21:25-28
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars and upon the earth, dismay among nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Do not be misled by preachers of popular escapist theories who are proclaiming that the church will be raptured out of this hour. No! The people of God must pass through the birth pangs and tribulations of these last days. An abundance of false teachings have conditioned the people of God to expect a fulfillment of things that will not occur, or will occur completely different than they imagine.
This was the situation 2,000 years ago when Christ first appeared. The people of God to whom the prophets and the forefathers had spoken were anticipating Christ to appear as a political champion to loose them from the yoke of Rome. Because they had adopted false understandings of the Scriptures they did not recognize the hour of their visitation and they crucified the Lord of glory.
Do not think that a similar lapse could not occur in this hour. Indeed, the church is fully primed to repeat the errors of the Jewish people. When reading the Scripture cited from Luke’s gospel, has not the church been taught to anticipate Yahshua appearing upon the literal clouds of the sky for all the world to behold Him? Because they have been instructed in error, repeated ad infinitum, they will not recognize the fulfillment of these words when Yahshua appears IN A REMNANT OF HIS PEOPLE. The overcomers are the clouds in which He will appear with glory and power.
II Thessalonians 1:9-10
And these will pay the penalty of age-during destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed…
I invite you to examine and test this truth yourself if you have not already done so. I have a writing posted titled The Next Appearance of Christ. It sets forth this understanding of the manner in which Christ must soon appear.
https://heart4god.ws/wordpress/2009/01/next-appearance-of-christ_09.html
Could it be possible that at this very hour Yahweh is showing forth the very signs in the heavens of which the prophets and the Messiah spoke? Could it be that the vast majority of the saints in the church today are so earthly minded that they are not observing these things, nor making themselves ready? Indeed it is.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So, there is nothing new under the sun.
It seems prescient that Solomon in speaking of man’s experiences as being repetitious would link this thought to a mention of the sun. Before Christ came the first time there were signs in the heavens attesting to His appearing, yet we read only of foreigners far removed from the land of Israel who observed and understood the signs. In this hour there are GREAT SIGNS being given. Among the tens of thousands of churches at which Christians gather week after week, where are the pastors and teachers who are telling them to look up and understand that which is at hand?
Some of you may be aware that beginning in 2008, and concluding in 2015, there began a string of unprecedented signs in the sun and the moon. The heavenly signs are far from random. They are precise, statistically improbable, and hold great portent for the people of God. In each of the years 2008, 2009 and 2010 there are total solar eclipses that fall on the same day on the Hebrew calendar. This date is the 1st of Av. Following is a table of this occurrence.
Note that although the eclipses fall on three different dates on the Gregorian Calendar, they all fall on the same date of the Hebrew Calendar. Yahweh has ordered that this be so to bring forth an important testimony.
Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
An oracle is an individual or thing that speaks forth the words of another. Yahweh has appointed the Jews to be the instrument through which He speaks in the earth. The Scriptures were delivered through Jewish men. Even the New Testament was authored by Jewish believers. (Some would argue that Luke may not have been a Jew, but there are good arguments pointing to his being Jewish.)
It should not surprise the Christian today if the Father continues to speak through that people, with their calendar and appointed times (moedim) that He long ago appointed to be His oracle in the earth. I want you to consider the rarity of three total solar eclipses occurring in three consecutive years on the same day on the Hebrew calendar.
After much searching I can find no evidence that since Adam was created 6,000 years ago there have ever been three total solar eclipses in three consecutive years all occurring on the same calendar date. NASA has a table listing all solar eclipses between the years 1999 B.C. to 3000 A.D.. It would be a very tedious matter to go through all the years to verify this information for yourself, but if any are interested, the table can be found at the following link:
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEcat5/SEcatalog.html
The Sorrows Cycle
Astronomers group solar eclipses into cycles. These cycles that repeat every 18 years (18 being 6+6+6) are called Saros Cycles. This is pronounced in the same way you would pronounce Sorrows Cycles. You can read about the scientific aspects of the Saros Cycles at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saros_cycle
To learn about the spiritual aspect of the Sorrows Cycle we must look to another source, the Bible.
Matthew 24:3-13
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,”Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” And Yahshua answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Yahshua told His disciples that there would be a time of Sorrows before His return. Our Father is at this time revealing that this time of Sorrows (Saros) is at hand. Solar eclipses have long been viewed by the Jews as an indicator of tribulation and calamity and judgment coming to the Gentile nations, while Lunar eclipses have been viewed similarly as pertaining to Israel.
As I have been traveling across this nation speaking to Yahweh’s scattered remnant, I have shared frequently of that form of symbolic speech utilized by Yahshua to describe this present hour. He spoke of the last days before His return as a woman in labor to give birth. The sons of God must come forth in this hour, yet their unveiling will be attended by birth pangs and much sorrow.
Revelation 12:1-3
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
In October of 2003 a great sign occurred in the Sun as a solar flare aimed directly at the earth sent forth enough radiation to saturate the instruments on the satellite NASA had stationed to record the radiation from Coronal Mass Ejections. This solar flare originated from Sunspot 486. The Father directed me to an understanding of this sign by leading me to a Scripture that corresponded with this number.
Psalms 48:6
Panic seized them there, anguish, as of a woman in childbirth.
This is the hour we now live in. It is a time for spiritual sons to be revealed. These must be matured through much tribulation. The earth must experience birth pangs, and a multitude of signs are pointing to these things.
153 Fish
Before continuing to declare the message of the sign of the solar eclipses, I will share a discovery the Father led me to yesterday. Those who read my blog and who have attended recent meetings, or listened to the audios from them, are aware of the significance of the number 153. In February of 2008 the Father spoke to me, directing me to leave the rescue mission that I had been at for the previous three years. He said it was time for me to embark on a new phase of the ministry He has appointed to me.
After departing from the mission, I spent some time camping and seeking the mind of the Father to know specifically what He was calling me to do. As I tarried before Him, He spoke to me through the Scripture in which we read of the disciples pulling up 153 large fish in their nets on the right side of the boat. This occurred after the resurrection of Christ.
Yahshua was on the shore, having a fire kindled and fish laid on the coals. He told the disciples to bring some of their fish, which were also laid on the coals. What the Spirit revealed to me is that Christ is to appear this last time in a manner in which many will not recognize Him. He will be leading His people to fiery experiences for their purification.
The story relates that the disciples dared not ask Yahshua who He was, indicating that there was some question in their minds. This is recorded for our benefit, having great design. Many Christians will not recognize the presence of Christ in the fiery trials ahead. Those who have been conditioned to believe that Christians will be raptured out of this earth before tribulation, or believe that it is never God’s will for His children to suffer, will deny that this is Christ. Yet those who know their Lord will recognize Him.
If you have not read the article I refer to, you can find it here:
https://heart4god.ws/wordpress/2008/04/third-appearance-of-christ.html
The 153 large fish represent those appointed to salvation. The nets of the disciples did not break as they had three years earlier when Christ first called them. Now, the nets held and no fish were lost. In the same way, Christ will bring an appointed number of His sons through the fire in this last hour. They will be made ready by these means to rule and reign with Him.
Yesterday, the Father revealed to me that the very same month that He called me out to begin this ministry to those people of God typified by the 153 large fish, there was a profound sign in the heavens that bore witness to this work. Following is an excerpt I took from an Internet website.
Lunar Eclipse in Virgo: February 21, 2008
A Full Moon total lunar eclipse in the constellation of Virgo is occurring on February 20/21, 2008.
February 21, 2008 1º53’ Virgo 4:27 am CET
At exactly 4:27 am CET the Sun will be moving opposite the Moon through the constellation of Pisces 1º53’. The Earth will align exactly between the Moon in Virgo and Sun in Pisces, blocking the light of the Sun to the Moon.
[End excerpt]
Do you see how the Father has set this testimony in the heavens. Pisces is the Latin plural word for fish. The constellation Pisces is depicted as great fish in the heavens.
Pisces
On February 21, 2008 the earth aligned exactly between the Sun and the Moon. On that date the moon was full, leading to a spectacular lunar eclipse. The Moon was in the constellation Virgo while the Sun was in the constellation Pisces. What is symbolized by this?
The Father was declaring through this sign in the heavens the very same thing He was speaking to me through the voice of His Spirit as He opened to me the understanding of the event when the disciples drew the 153 large fish to shore and placed them in the fire.
The Sun is a source of fire, and the fire had entered the constellation Pisces. The Moon typifies the people of God. In the same way that the Moon has no glory of its own, but reflects the light of the Sun, so too does the church have no glory of its own, but it reflects the glory of Christ. Even as the moon waxes and wanes in glory, so too has the church over the last 2,000 years.
An hour is at hand for the church to pass through an hour of darkness. They will go through great tribulation in the same way that Christ placed the fish over the fire. Satan will be granted authority to wage war with the saints, and even to overcome them. But by their patience they will preserve their souls.
Revelation 13:3-10
And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them… If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
This sign in the heavens occurred precisely at 1 degree 53 minutes in the constellation Virgo. There are those signified by the 153 fish who come out of the virgin church who will pass through the fire, yet none of them will be lost. Christ has testified:
John 6:38-39
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
Did some of the disciples of Christ suffer imprisonment, persecution, and even loss of life? Yes! Yet Christ brought them through these things victoriously. They held fast their confession and did not shrink back when faced with suffering. They have entered into better things, and will stand with Christ in glory on that day.
So too must the people of God in this hour pass through many tribulations. Christ is able to take the weakest members of His household and cause them to stand. He will provide all grace to those whose hearts are wholly His. He will strongly support them. He will bring them forth to glory, overcoming Satan by the word of their testimony, the blood of the Lamb, and loving not their lives even to the death.
I have many more things to write to you concerning these signs in the heavens, and the phenomenal messages being declared through them. I will continue this teaching in the next post. Please consider that it is only a week from now that this third total eclipse will be observed. It too will fall on the 1st of Av on the Hebrew calendar. Our Father is speaking. Great things are at hand. Look up, and behold, your redemption is drawing nigh!
Heart4God Website: http://www.heart4god.ws
Parables Blog: www.parablesblog.blogspot.com
Mailing Address:
Joseph Herrin
P.O. Box 804
Montezuma, GA 31063
Joseph,
Thanks for your insightful posts. They are a blessing. Is it your opinion that we are currently in THE tribulation period (based upon the eclipses occurring between 2008 & 2015)?
Blessings,
Steve
Dear Steve,
You have asked an excellent question. I do not want to speak beyond the revelation given to me by the Father. We are certainly living in extraordinary days, and the Father has been testifying that His people need to be prepared for days of trouble.
I have often spoken of these present days as "birthpangs" which must attend the emergence of a mature body of sons. This is the language the Father has most often used to speak to me of these days.
I would hesitate to put a beginning and start date to the period known as the Tribulation, or to seek to pinpoint the date of Yahshua's return.
It seems enough to announce that Yahshua has said that His return is imminent and all His people should be watchful, sober, and quick to follow in obedience.
May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.
Hi there,
I have found something interesting. As it seems that nobody else noticed it, I want to share it here:
First, please read 1. Thess 5, 1-9 carefully!
I especially like 1. Thess 5,3 (because 1-5-3! :-))
Now please note the following facts:
1) 26th of June was the longest day in the year
2) 26th of June was fullmoon
-> no other constellation brings more "light into the night" as
exactly this one! It is a rather rare constellation (I guess it happens about once ever 30 years).
3) 26th of June the G8 ended. one of its topics was "International Peace
and Safety":
http://g8.gc.ca/for-media/other-services/media-briefing-books/priorities-for-the-g-8-summit-in-muskoka/
4) 26th of June the G20 started, also with the same topic "International
Peace and Security":
http://g20.gc.ca/address-by-minister-van-loan-at-munk-school-of-global-affairs-g-20-conference/
"The Muskoka G-8 Summit will be an opportunity to demonstrate Canada’s
leadership and accountability in areas like development, peace and
security.
Here in Toronto, the G-20 Summit will give global leaders the
opportunity to discuss ways to restore the health of the global
economy, and lay the foundations for strong, sustainable and balanced
growth in the years ahead."
A name much in the news these days is Geo Soros, responsible for bringing "sorrows" and trepidation to many of those living in these times of upheaval in our world as we know it. Could not help but think of his name when reading your latest blog.
On June 3, 2008 the Lord blessed me with a supernatural vision in which He showed me the number 7 in His Light. He then immediately led me to Ezekiel 3:15to confirm the vision. In this verse the number seven is spelled out. Later the Lord also revealed to me that the reason He led me to this verse to confirm the vision was because of the number 15. I knew in my spirit when I was given this vision that the Lord was announcing when the end would come. I've been blessed with other visions since being born again back on Nov. 1994,however, I had never had a vision such as this. This vision goes right along with what you've just posted. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!
Joseph- thanks for your ministry. However, it's your blog and others like it that caused a great deal of confusion for me for a season regarding the tribulation period and the role of the Church during that time. Thank the Lord he has shown me contextually from His word what is now crystal clear: there is no role for the Church during the tribulation because the "remnant" that you often reference – those who have not just been saved by the blood but are walking daily and obeying Him – will be "caught/snatched out" (harpazo) of that time. Of course there are those who will say "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name?", but they will be shut out of the marriage supper of the Lamb because they had on not their garments made white by His blood, but instead those which are stained by the world. These he has not forsaken nor damned, but rather they are the foolish virgins (chaste but sleeping) who He has instead counseled to buy gold refined in the fire (Rev. 3:18). If the church were to face such persecution as described in Revelation, you must deny the very words of our Messiah in Luke 21:36, John 14:1-3 along with the types & shadows of translated saints in the OT from Enoch and Elijah to the spared remnants of Noah and Lot – who Jesus also referenced when speaking of the time of his return for his church.
This is not special revelation, but rather one He has given and promised to all those long for his appearing (2 Tim. 4:8) and look eagerly to the day when will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is (1 John 3:2). While we must always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in us even in times of trial and persecution, there is no need to charge the brethren with a work that has already been accomplished. TETELESTAI!
Love not the world and get ready to go home. God bless you, brothers & sisters…
Dear Ian,
Thank you for sharing your sincere objections to the assertion that the elect of God will have to pass through days of great tribulation. I am sure you know that the idea of getting raptured out of this world prior to tribulation is an idea that appeals greatly to the soul of man. The Adamic nature does not desire suffering. Even Yahshua, wrestled with the cup of suffering presented to Him, but His Spirit man ruled and He was able to say, "Nevertheless, not My will, but Thy will be done."
I have recently shared more than once the following Scripture.
Mark 13:19-20
For those days will be a time of TRIBULATION such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, and never shall. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of THE ELECT whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Yahshua is declaring that the elect of God will be present during this time of tribulation. Although you may point to a limited number of examples of men who did not die, but ascended alive, such as Elijah and Enoch, there are far greater numbers of examples of men and women "who loved not their lives unto the death." Chapter 11 of Hebrews lists many who were not raptured out of this world, but were conquerors THROUGH affliction.
Hebrews 11:35-38
Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
Yahshua declared that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer THEN to enter into His glory (Luke 24:26). We are as He is in this world. We too must suffer before we enter into glory.
Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…
Ian, I cannot teach the saints of God to expect to be raptured out of this world before tribulation. There are far too many already preaching this message, and the majority of them also preach the prosperity gospel, for both message appeal to the flesh of man.
We are called to live daily as martyrs. Whether we are chosen to lay down our lives as physical martyrs is up to the Father. He has chosen that end for each of His sons that will most glorify Himself.
We must pass through the "first things" before we enter into glory.
Revelation 21:4
"and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the FIRST THINGS have passed away."
May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.
Joseph,
The oldest lie in the book is the one used to tempt Eve; “Ye shall be as gods.” We want to believe we play a role in our salvation, which would give us God-like power. But Jehovah-Jireh will provide whatever He will for His glory, and the martyrdom of His church in the last century has been greater than the sum total of all the prior centuries. Nor do I doubt there is anyone who is born again and reading this who wouldn't lay down their life for the brethren and for the name of our Lord. And we know that Revelation tells us the elect that are saved during the Tribulation will be beheaded for their witness. So for anyone who knows Jesus Christ as Lord & Saviour, attributing the "catching/snatching away/out from" event as an escapist argument simply doesn't hold water.
But let's set aside our own private interpretation and take His revelation to us in context: what do you do with Luke 21:36, for starters? Why would Jesus command – "Watch, therefore, and pray" – that we pay attention and petition for such an escape? There is no real dispute over the time period our Lord is describing in this passage, so are you suggesting his words are extraneous or empty? Of course, this is merely one passage among many that the Lord used to convey an escape for those whose lamps are full with oil (the Holy Spirit), though none of us are deserving of the salvation that He has promised to all those who believe in His name.
This refutation is very serious and demands a defense, for if you're teaching is in error, then the Word command us to confront one another in love, and I do so with the witness of two or three readers here on your blog.
I'm sure you won't hesitate to post this message along with your reply. Thank you for your time.
Dear Ian,
You wrote:
"The oldest lie in the book is the one used to tempt Eve; 'Ye shall be as gods.'"
To be correct, the quotation spoken to Eve was not "Ye shall be as gods (plural, lower case)," rather it is "You shall be as God (singular, upper case) knowing good and evil." It was this particular aspect of God, the ability to determine good and evil within her own being that was held before the first woman as a temptation. I have written much on this topic in the book "Sabbath."
The quotation you cited is taken from the Psalms, recorded originally by Asaph and later quoted as truth by Christ. It is hard to imagine that a Christian could seriously contend that Christ spoke the oldest lie in the book.
You also wrote:
"We want to believe we play a role in our salvation, which would give us God-like power."
Brother, we all do play a role in our salvation. Consider the apostle Paul's words in Philippians 2:12 – "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling."
And again in Hebrews 4:11 he writes:
Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.
That which Paul describes as the Sabbath rest of the people of God is that conformity to Christ we are all called to obtain. Apart from having done so, there can be no fulness of salvation.
Regarding Luke 21:36, the quotation is as follows:
Luke 21:36
"But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
NAS
Notice that Christ does not say that Christians should pray that they might AVOID those things to take place. They are instead urged to pray for STRENGTH. This gives us a clue to understanding what is meant by the word escape.
The saints will need strength to pass through those days successfully without suffering loss. This is what it means to escape.
Christ presaged these words with the following:
Luke 21:34
"Be on guard, that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap…"
NAS
Though both sinner and saint must pass through days of great tribulation, those who are found leading dissipated, sensual, self-focused lives, will find that the day entraps them. They will be snared by their sins. Christ is saying that the disciple should pray that he would have strength to be sober and vigilant, walking in righteousness in that day so that it will not be a snare unto him.
Ian, if you have your mind made up that you will not be here for days of great tribulation, then I do not believe I can persuade you. I do not believe either you or I will have long to await the fulfillment of these matters and to see whether you and a vast body of Christians are raptured out of the world, or whether you are still here.
I have no doubt that the fables of such men as Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in the "Left Behind" fiction series will truly prove to be fiction based upon false doctrine. I am at peace brother. I pray you might be also.
Pastor Herrin thank you very much for the insightful posting truly Adonai is working with you calling out the saints He has chosen.I read what Ian posted and this came me about those who believe they will fly away: 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
First, I'd like to emphasize that it is not my intention to create strife among the regenerated believers in Christ on this thread, nor do I believe we will be even remotely interested in discussing this topic on the other side of the veil.
That being said, I am not interested in any words written by Tim LaHaye or any other men, but rather holy men moved by the Holy Spirit. I will focus my response to the verses in question and reference only those verses that can be considered relevant on an exegetical level.
Regarding Luke 21:36, Joseph said: "Notice that Christ does not say that Christians should pray that they might AVOID those things to take place. They are instead urged to pray for STRENGTH. This gives us a clue to understanding what is meant by the word escape."
1. Your assertion that Jesus does not urge us to pray to "avoid" is incorrect – the Greek word used for "escape" is ekfeugo, or "to flee from". If there's any distinction between avoiding something and fleeing from something it is merely semantic in nature. Though you choose to reference the NAS version of the verse, the Greek verb "katischuo" means "to have the strength or capability to obtain an advantage, be dominant, prevail".
The verse, then, literally says we are to pray that we are given the capability to obtain an advantage/superior position/dominance to flee from or to prevail in fleeing from all these things that will come to pass. This is in direct contradiction to your assertion that saints "will need strength to PASS THROUGH those days successfully without suffering loss. This is what it means to escape."
No, it's not – at least not according to this text. There is no confusion between "pass through" and "flee from".
2. "..and stand before the Son of man" – exactly what does Christ want to convey in this statement immediately following his reference to succeed in fleeing from what's coming? The only time the Church will stand before Christ is at the bema seat (Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9). When the Lord returns with His bride at the end of the tribulation in Revelation 19:8, she is seen already rewarded in fine linen, the righteous acts of the saints. Thus the bema judgment must come prior to this.
In your exegesis you conveniently do not address what it means to stand before the Son in the midst of "great tribulation". We know there will be many whose robes are washed in blood from that snare that will come upon the earth, but that is NOT what Luke 21:36 is referring to, for that would mean you are suggesting our Lord is telling us to watch and pray so we can die. This is completely unacceptable contextually speaking and does in fact suggest a not-insignificant error in doctrine.
The whole tenure of scripture is that this carnal world is being used by God to refine and bring to maturity His children. The tribulation is going to be a wonderful opportunity for God's children to be brought to this maturity as they see all selfhood being consumed by God's divine fire. When the world is at its' darkest we will see Christ through His Saints at His brightest.
1 Peter 1:7 (King James Version)
7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
…1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us(me) to suffer WRATH, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
…seems to me when God looks at me He only sees His son, Jesus.
…america may be falling apart(with alot of help from Satan), but there are millions of Christ followers…millions of people on their knees before the Lord.
…the body of Christ is being called to repent…like NOW!!! And I see many being set free…Amen.
…Romans 11:4-7…"the elect" is that not the remnant of Israel!
…you mentioned Christ's cup of suffering…only He could take that cup…and He did…the Perfect Lamb. Our part is to stand in His power, might, and strength. You can not compare any of our TROUBLES to Christ's cup of suffering!
…1 Thessalonians 1:10…-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming WRATH.
Revelation 6, the start of God's WRATH….Revelation 15, God's WRATH complete.
hum…sounds like Jesus is stepping in to me.
Dear Ian (or Anonymous),
You cite the Scripture that declares that God did not appoints us to suffer wrath. What is that wrath He is speaking of? It can be understood by the context of the passage.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us(me) to suffer WRATH, but to receive SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ.
In this passage these two things are contrasted: WRATH and SALVATION. The Scriptures declare that Yahweh will tread His enemies under His feet in the winepress of His wrath at the third and final resurrection.
This passage is not intended to be understood as some do, that Christians will not have to experience suffering, persecution, and even death as martyrs here in this life. If this were so, then why did so many apostles and disciples of Christ die as martyrs?
Consider the words of the apostle Paul:
Colossians 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church…
You mentioned that only Christ had a cup of suffering to drink, and we do not. Paul clearly testifies that this cup of suffering yet remains. He is committed to "fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ."
We know those things Paul experienced, beatings, stoning, imprisonment, and eventual death. These are part of the afflictions that yet remain for the people of God which are the Body of Christ.
The apostles everywhere agree that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
Acts 14:21-22
And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."
Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…
It is also a tragic deception to believe that when God looks at you He sees only His Son who is the Christ. If this were true, then why do we read everywhere throughout the New Testament of God judging His people who are in Christ?
Paul wrote to the Corinthians and told them that some were sick, and others had died, for partaking of the Lord's supper in an improper way. Was the Father seeing only His Son when these believers were acting carnally?
Then there is the instance of Ananias and Sapphira who were both struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit. We read Christ's words to the seven churches where He begins repeatedly by declaring "I know YOUR DEEDS."
Yahshua did not say, "My Father sees only Me when HE looks at you." The declaration of truth must proclaim to the people of God, "Be not decieved. God will not be mocked, for YOU will reap what YOU sow. He who sows to the flesh will reap destruction, but He who sows to the Spirit will reap life to the ages."
May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.
…the fact that God does want us to judge ourselves, does NOT mean He does not see Christ in me…He see's an area that I need to acknowledge as sin(for all sin, none are without sin)…so if I am His I will hear where i have fallen short and then take action to repent and change that sin.
It is no deception that when God looks at me He sees only His Son…because I am covered in the blood of Christ…that I can come before the throne of God. God will not allow sin near Him…yet I can come because of Jesus.
I don't doubt your love for the Lord…but no one is perfect, not even you…so like others have confronted you…your word is not the final say…your opinion can hurt and i don't mean in a growing mature way…be careful of a righteous attitude…you are being called on it.
…you did not reply to the 1 Thess.1:10 and Rev. 6 and Rev.15, start and end of God's wrath.
Wrath: 1. intense anger; rage; fury. 2. any action carried out in great anger, esp. for punishment or vengeance.
…why would God punish His children sealed with the Holy Spirit?
…no hard feelings…just could not take everything you have written has fact.
Dear Ian (or Anonymous),
I believe you would agree that not all Yahweh's sons and daughters will judge themselves, therefore they will fall under the judgment of God.
1 Corinthians 11:31-33
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.
This passage and many others reveal that the judgment of Yahweh does fall upon His children, not just the lost. Peter writes similarly:
1 Peter 4:17-18
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?
The false doctrines of present Christianity would permit the church to follow after carnality without fear of judgment. They have embraced many false doctrines that lead them to walk very carelessly. They are not walking in the fear of God, as they ought to, having had the fear of judgment removed from their eyes.
Even those sons whose hearts are turned toward obeying the Father must experience His scourging. In the book of Hebrews Paul tells us that God "scourges EVERY son whom He receives." If we are without this discipline, then we are illegitimate sons.
This present time is appointed for the perfecting of sons, and if Christ was perfected through suffering, then so must be all who would be sons. There is no other method to conform a carnal, Adamic man into a spiritual creation in the likeness of Christ.
Brother, due to time, I am not able to continue this thread further. I have meetings beginning tomorrow. If you would like to correspond further, please contact me at my e-mail address which can be found on the top left side of the Parables Blog.
May you be blessed with peace and understanding in these days.